Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

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Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by officerdribble on Fri May 15, 2015 9:07 pm

Was Incapacity Benefit a named benefit (as in deductible) before the 2006 Regs? Can't seem to find the answer anywhere....although I did ask NARPO who said the fed lawyers looked into it some years back. When I attempted to get to the bottom of what the advice had been...no-one bothered to get back to me. Which kind of made me suspicious. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by RedDog on Tue May 26, 2015 5:07 pm

Incapacity Benefit WAS certainly deducted from my injury pension from when I was transferred onto it from Invalidity Benefit. I can't remember whether it was actually a 'named benefit'.

I think it wasn't shown as named before 2006 and I believe this issue is included in an ongoing court case brought by some ex Met blokes with legal assistance although it has been hanging around for quite some time now.

Sorry I can't post any specifics for you.

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by officerdribble on Tue May 26, 2015 7:11 pm

Thanks RedDog. I thought there was something going on somewhere about it. Can only hope those cases are sorted soon and we get to hear of them...or fed/narpo do.

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by morritt on Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:53 am

I have today submitted a complaint to the Pensions Ombudsman regarding the deduction of incapacity benefit from my injury pension prior to the introduction of PIBR 2006.  I will keep the forum updated as to progress.

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by oldandintheway on Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:28 am

My force gave me a written notice, when I was retired in 1997, stating that if I claimed incapacity benefit I was obliged to inform them and that they would deduct this taxable benefit from my tax fee injury pension - so I didn't claim it. That decision, taken entirely due to that notice, cost me around £40,000 between 1997 and 2006. Can I sue my force?

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by officerdribble on Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:35 pm

morritt wrote:I have today submitted a complaint to the Pensions Ombudsman regarding the deduction of incapacity benefit from my injury pension prior to the introduction of PIBR 2006.  I will keep the forum updated as to progress.


Please do keep us informed. Have you had any help from anyone to prepare papers to submit? Narpo/Fed solicitors? I can't understand why they are reluctant to provide assistance to Officers who through no fault of their own have found themselves in this situation. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by officerdribble on Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:39 pm

RedDog wrote:Incapacity Benefit WAS certainly deducted from my injury pension from when I was transferred onto it from Invalidity Benefit. I can't remember whether it was actually a 'named benefit'.

I think it wasn't shown as named before 2006 and I believe this issue is included in an ongoing court case brought by some ex Met blokes with legal assistance although it has been hanging around for quite some time now.

Sorry I can't post any specifics for you.


Unfortunately my brain doesn't work on full cylinders anymore so I'm struggling to think how we might find out about the these Met Officers. There MUST be a way of finding out! Maybe I'll try Narpo once more...but given the short shrift I had from someone quite high up the last time I asked about this...I feel it's going to take someone stronger than I. Any takers?

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by officerdribble on Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:57 pm

oldandintheway wrote:My force gave me a written notice, when I was retired in 1997, stating that if I claimed incapacity benefit I was obliged to inform them and that they would deduct this taxable benefit from my tax fee injury pension - so I didn't claim it. That decision, taken entirely due to that notice, cost me around £40,000 between 1997 and 2006. Can I sue my force?


Hello Oldandintheway...<I'm sure you are not in the way and we all have our feeling old days. Wink

I think I had the same notice. They said if I was entitled to claim it..as in unfit to work...unable to sign on...or work...then I had no choice but to claim as they would deduct it anyway.

As things stand at the present time (with my force, your's may be different) I had to claim..they deducted it. It may now turn out to be they deducted it unlawfully.

In your case - are you saying it cost you around £40,000 in lost benefit? Because if you'd been treated the same as myself and others (claimed the benefit) you would have lost only the tax (as things stand right now) Should the 'error' at some point in the future be recognised by either the courts or individual pension providers ...then yes you will (it would seem to me) have lost that money.

As to whether you should sue in relation to their notice...no idea. You'd need to take some legal advice I would suggest. Flipping annoying though!

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by oldandintheway on Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:33 am

I've managed over the years without the incapacity benefit (although an extra £90 would certainly have helped!) - it's just the thought that, even before the buggers thought about cutting our pensions, they were inept enough to give us "advice" that they would unlawfully penalise us for something that it turns out we could have claimed WITHOUT penalty. I was retired with "severe stress related depressive illness" (nowadays diagnosed as PTSD) mainly due to senior officers in my force - any contact with or from the force sends me into meltdown, so I'm not about to enter into a legal dispute with them, so I suppose it's all theoretical anyway. They're welcome to that £40000 - I just wish they'd agree to leave me alone from now on!

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by officerdribble on Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:41 pm

oldandintheway wrote:I've managed over the years without the incapacity benefit (although an extra £90 would certainly have helped!) - it's just the thought that, even before the buggers thought about cutting our pensions, they were inept enough to give us "advice" that they would unlawfully penalise us for something that it turns out we could have claimed WITHOUT penalty. I was retired with "severe stress related depressive illness" (nowadays diagnosed as PTSD) mainly due to senior officers in my force - any contact with or from the force sends me into meltdown, so I'm not about to enter into a legal dispute with them, so I suppose it's all theoretical anyway. They're welcome to that £40000 - I just wish they'd agree to leave me alone from now on!


Believe me when I say...I know exactly how you feel. I too can't stand any communication from them. Being treated unfairly has become par for the course and really doesn't help to put matters in the past when yet again...there is a cock-up that they try to side-step. Shame on them. If Narpo actually read this forum...they ought to sit up and pay attention. I wish you well.

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by White Horse on Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:30 pm

officerdribble wrote:Was Incapacity Benefit a named benefit (as in deductible) before the 2006 Regs? Can't seem to find the answer anywhere....although I did ask NARPO who said the fed lawyers looked into it some years back. When I attempted to get to the bottom of what the advice had been...no-one bothered to get back to me. Which kind of made me suspicious. Rolling Eyes
Hi officerdribble,
Yes, Incapacity Benefit was listed as a deductible benefit in a form I was given in 1997.
The fact that you did not claim IB when you may have been entitled to it, was entirely your own decision, although you may have altered that if you had been more fully informed at the time.
There is nothing "unlawful" about deducting IB from your injury pension element, it is written into law. It is probably immoral, but that's a different story.

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by oldandintheway on Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:43 am

The form you were given may have included Incapacity Benefit as deductible but that didn't make it lawful. The only benefit that was lawful was one listed in the 1987 Regs (at that time) - Incapacity Benefit was not listed - that is what the fuss is about I believe - will someone like Urtica give us the nitty gritty please?


Last edited by oldandintheway on Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:43 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by Urtica on Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:31 pm

As far as I am aware Incapacity Benefit (IB)was paid between 1995 and 2014, when it was replaced by Employment and Support Allowance (ESA).

Up to 2006 IB was NOT in the list of state benefits that, if entitled, would see an equivalent amount deducted from the injury pension.

The Police (Injury Benefit) Regulations 2006 included IB in the list, but when ESA came in nobody bothered to amend the Regulations. However, some pensioners had injury pension deductions when they claimed ESA. This was unlawful, and the Home Office agrees. Anyone who had deductions should claim them back.

Although I am unaware of anyone who had IB equivalent deductions from their injury pension from 1995 to 2006 ought to be repaid.

I suggest that you email Steve Edwards, Deputy CEO of NARPO, quote your membership number, and ask him to confirm. There will doubtless be other people who are in a similar situation, so I feel that NARPO HQ should be willing and able to help. Steve's email is depceo@narpo.org

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by Adversity on Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:51 pm

Urtica, you state you are unaware of anyone who had Incapacity Benefit deducted from their injury pension 1995-2006. I had it deducted gross from 2000-2006. (And then lawfully deducted from 2006 until it became ESA).
I guess you are right that I didn't have 'an equivalent amount deducted', I had the the gross amount of Incapacity deducted, but, as incapacity is a taxable benefit, taxed through your tax code, I lost a further 20%.
Narpo looked into this years a go but didn't/couldn't do anything.

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by officerdribble on Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:46 pm

Urtica wrote:As far as I am aware Incapacity Benefit (IB)was paid between 1995 and 2014, when it was replaced by Employment and Support Allowance (ESA).

Up to 2006 IB was NOT in the list of state benefits that, if entitled, would see an equivalent amount deducted from the injury pension.

The Police (Injury Benefit) Regulations 2006 included IB in the list, but when ESA came in nobody bothered to amend the Regulations. However, some pensioners had injury pension deductions when they claimed ESA. This was unlawful, and the Home Office agrees. Anyone who had deductions should claim them back.

Although I am unaware of anyone who had IB equivalent deductions from their injury pension from 1995 to 2006 ought to be repaid.

I suggest that you email Steve Edwards, Deputy CEO of NARPO, quote your membership number, and ask him to confirm. There will doubtless be other people who are in a similar situation, so I feel that NARPO HQ should be willing and able to help. Steve's email is depceo@narpo.org


Thank you for your information. That's what I thought as couldn't find anything in the regs saying that it could be deducted. I've a horrible feeling it may have been Mr. Edwards who suggested I ask the department of 'saved advise from Fed) to look up what had been decided at that time. They never got back to me. I guess things could be slightly different now given the whole ESA debacle. And yes...there are some of us out here who have had it deducted when apparently is should not have been. Obviously things changed in 2001 in that the DWP brought in if your income/pension was over a certain weekly amount you basically didn't get it. In my case it was before 2001 and I remained under the system as it was then. Stupidly I thought the powers that be might have worked out for themselves that an error had been made that need putting right. Suppose it's a case of them keeping quiet and hoping we all die before realising. I will try Mr. Edwards again. Everyone deserves a second chance.

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by officerdribble on Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:55 pm

officerdribble wrote:
Urtica wrote:As far as I am aware Incapacity Benefit (IB)was paid between 1995 and 2014, when it was replaced by Employment and Support Allowance (ESA).

Up to 2006 IB was NOT in the list of state benefits that, if entitled, would see an equivalent amount deducted from the injury pension.

The Police (Injury Benefit) Regulations 2006 included IB in the list, but when ESA came in nobody bothered to amend the Regulations. However, some pensioners had injury pension deductions when they claimed ESA. This was unlawful, and the Home Office agrees. Anyone who had deductions should claim them back.

Although I am unaware of anyone who had IB equivalent deductions from their injury pension from 1995 to 2006 ought to be repaid.


It rather begs the question (reading back over this thread) that if people have been sent forms detailing which benefits were to be deducted and that was incorrect as to law....then someone somewhere has either made a terrible error, or there's some maladministration going on. Not to mention who's pocket the difference between taking any relevant benefit from IOD pension GROSS, the funds are going into?!


I suggest that you email Steve Edwards, Deputy CEO of NARPO, quote your membership number, and ask him to confirm. There will doubtless be other people who are in a similar situation, so I feel that NARPO HQ should be willing and able to help. Steve's email is depceo@narpo.org


Thank you for your information. That's what I thought as couldn't find anything in the regs saying that it could be deducted. I've a horrible feeling it may have been Mr. Edwards who suggested I ask the department of 'saved advise from Fed) to look up what had been decided at that time. They never got back to me. I guess things could be slightly different now given the whole ESA debacle. And yes...there are some of us out here who have had it deducted when apparently is should not have been. Obviously things changed in 2001 in that the DWP brought in if your income/pension was over a certain weekly amount you basically didn't get it. In my case it was before 2001 and I remained under the system as it was then. Stupidly I thought the powers that be might have worked out for themselves that an error had been made that need putting right. Suppose it's a case of them keeping quiet and hoping we all die before realising. I will try Mr. Edwards again. Everyone deserves a second chance.

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by officerdribble on Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:22 am

Adversity wrote:Urtica, you state you are unaware of anyone who had Incapacity Benefit deducted from their injury pension 1995-2006. I had it deducted gross from 2000-2006. (And then lawfully deducted from 2006 until it became ESA).
I guess you are right that I didn't have 'an equivalent amount deducted', I had the the gross amount of Incapacity deducted, but, as incapacity is a taxable benefit, taxed through your tax code, I lost a further 20%.
Narpo looked into this years a go but didn't/couldn't do anything.



Same here. Hope you will be contacting NARPO (if a member) too? And if not a member...maybe join sometime soon.

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by Urtica on Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:56 am

It is a sad indictment of an organisation whose objective is written large in the rules as, 'The objective for which the Association was established is to safeguard the rights of members and promote measures for their welfare with particular regard to pensions.'

So, protect rights and pensions, then. Let's see how Steve Edwards measures up. He has been very supportive and helpful over the last few years, but is held back by an organisation which is poorly structured. It is branch led, not led from the top. True democracy in action you might say. But when the majority of members prefer to concentrate on golf, theatre trips and other assorted social activities and who could not care less about the problems disabled former colleagues face, then NARPO is, in some respects, not fit for purpose.

However, you won't get anything unless you ask, and maybe push a bit.

I've mooted the idea that a new NARPO branch could be formed, for IOD pensioners and their supporters (for not all NARPO members are careless about their disabled colleagues) but am told that branches have to be geographical, and in any case moves are afoot to decrease the number of branches through amalgamation. Apparently the national executive committee would need to approve any proposal for a new branch so IOD pensioners could not expect to get support if they, say, wanted a new branch covering the extensive acreage of 23 Railway Cuttings, East Cheam.

If NARPO HQ can't or won't help then there are other options. You can turn to either Ron Thompson or Mark Lake, solictors, whose contact details are still shown on the old PIPIN web site. Ron covers the northern forces and Mark the southern. Well worth an initial chat, which would be free. If funding is needed both are on the Federation's list of approved solicitors and have ready access to Fed HQ where they can, and will, apply for funding from the Federation. This is usually forthcoming where a case looks to have good prospects of success.

An alternative, though needing a lot of patience as it takes many months, is to go to the Pensions Ombudsman. Before his office will take up a complaint for investigation the applicant must show that all local avenues of redress have been exhausted. That means the police pension authority (the Chief Constable) has refused to deal with the matter, and that you have then initiated an Internal Dispute Resolution Procedure which also has not brought a resolution of the problem.

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by officerdribble on Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:06 pm

Well said Urtica.

I have made contact with Steve. First thoughts are there maybe 'timescales' involved in bringing a complaint. However, he is doing some research and will come back to me.

I don't play golf, go to the theatre or involve myself in any Narpo social events...I pay my membership to be helped if or when, I might need it.


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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by Adversity on Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:34 pm

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/police_injury_pensio_deduction_o
(In case this link does not work, I have summarised it below).

freedom of information request from John Telford 2 Jun 2014, who asked

“Dear Home Office, I am aware that the Police Pension Regulations 1987 allowed certain DSS/DWP benefits including invalidity benefit to be deducted from Police injury pensions. When invalidity benefit was replaced by incapacity benefit on 13 April 1995 were the regulations amended to allow the incapacity benefit to be deducted from the injury pension?  If so please provide details of the legislation. I believe the necessary amendment did not take place until 2006.”

Home office reply-

“You ask if we can state unequivocally that incapacity benefit should not have been deducted from injury awards prior to the introduction of the Police Injury Benefit Regulations 2006.  The answer is that we cannot state that.

From 1 April 1987 until 6 April 2006 Police Pensions Regulations allowed the deduction of certain named benefits under various provisions of the Social Security Act 1975.  In 1992 these provisions of the Social Security Act 1975 were repealed by the Social Security (Consequential Provisions) Act 1992.  On the same date, the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 came into force. This introduced benefits to replace those listed in the Police Pensions Regulations, including a new sickness benefit under section 31 and invalidity pension under section 33.  Section 2(4) of the 1992 Consequential Provisions Act provided that any reference to a provision of the repealed enactments should be construed  as including a reference to the corresponding provision of the consolidating Acts.  The “consolidating Acts” include the 1992 Contributions and Benefits Act. So from 1992 the references in the Police Pensions Regulations to sections 14 and 15 of the 1975 Act were to be construed as including a reference to sections 31 and 33 of the 1992 Contributions and Benefits Act.  

However, in 1995 the 1992 Contributions and Benefits Act was amended by the Social Security (Incapacity for Work) Act 1994, which included the insertion of a new section 30A, which created incapacity benefit.   It also had provisions which had the effect, in relation to the Police Pensions Regulations, that the references to sections 14 and 15 of the 1975 Act, which fell to be construed as references to sections 31 and 33 of the 1992 Contributions and Benefits Act by virtue of section 2(4) of the 1992 Consequential Provisions Act, were then to be construed as a reference to section 30A of the 1992 Contributions and Benefits Act. Further, the references to sickness benefit and invalidity pension were then to be construed as a reference to incapacity benefit.  

The deduction of incapacity benefit prior to 2006 was therefore lawful.

I hope that clarifies the position”.

….
So appears that the Home Office have taken the dictionary meaning of 'construed', which actually means 'interpreted', to be as lawful as changing legislation in Parliament.  Good grief, I have saved the government millions, they can sack all the barristers, close the courts and house of lords, and just have a focus group interpreting a situation as they see fit!

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by officerdribble on Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:53 pm

I construe from the above that someone's going to have a lot of research to do, NARPO.

That sounds like someone has answered the FOI request having accidentally swallowed a hallucinogenic mushroom found in the bull barn whilst sitting on a heap of unhygienic bedding.

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by officerdribble on Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:14 pm

It needs testing in court. Steve said it hasn't been. I wonder how individual forces would construe it? Alright I know how...!

There is also the matter of the double taxation where the benefit has been taxable and pension providers have deducted GROSS rather than net. That money has ended up in the providers coffers rather than the officers. That must be some kind of maladministration surely?

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by RedDog on Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:22 pm

Jeez, looking at that claptrap from the HO reminds me of the old western films where the Red Indians used to say  " White man talks with forked tongue " !!! scratch

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by Adversity on Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:34 pm

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/introduction_of_the_taxation_of

This is another detailed information request about incapacity benefit being introduced, and shows yet again that the Home Office have not got any actual legislation to accommodate incapacity benefit being a deductible benefit until 2006.  Their first reply is laughable, seems the world did not exist pre 2006, I wonder why.

Their second reply, (you need to scroll down, the first copy was corrupted), again they ignore the main question about what legislation covered it pre 2006. But, in relation to the fact that incapacity benefit was taxable, and therefore those of us who retired 1995-2001 were actually losing more than just the deducted benefit, due to tax, (in this officer's case £68 tax a month)- The Home Office reply stated-”you have said that you are paying an additional deduction of £68 from your police injury pension. As you know an injury pension is tax free therefore wish to contact your police pension administrator on this point”.


I think we all need to take a copy of that home office advice and, when our pay departments start deducting ESA again shortly, we could send a PIPIN produced template letter stating we have 'construed' from the above, that the Home Office believe we should not be losing out by indirectly paying tax on our tax free pension, and that future DWP benefits should be deducted net?

I do recall an article dated around 1995 from the government discussing how the change from invalidity to incapacity would have a very minor effect on police pensioner's pay due to tax.  Well, in my case it was £100 tax a month, I do not consider that minor  Unfortunately that article is saved somewhere in my system, but I can not locate it, or is has been removed from the net.

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Re: Information please on the regs regarding Incap Benefit pre 2006

Post by morritt on Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:08 pm

I have now had an acknowledgement from the Pensions Ombudsman advising me that it will be at least seven weeks before they even decide whether to investigate  my complaint.
This has obviously highlighted the fact that many people are in a similar position.

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